#ACCTRNY Semi-Final Saturday Open Thread…

1pm: North Carolina vs NC State

3pm: Duke vs Florida State

State playing for their NCAAT bid. I think they are in win or lose anyway. UNC a possible Number 1 seed. Can UNC beat them for the third time this year? WristWatch? Will Henson play, and if so how much? Should be interesting.

Update: Looks like Henson is going to sit this game out.

Duke and FSU rubber match. Should also be interesting.

thoughts, opinions…

 

83 thoughts on “#ACCTRNY Semi-Final Saturday Open Thread…

  1. The ACC should be embarrassed. Terrible reffing all the way around in that game for both State and UNC. ACC deserves better.

  2. If they wanted to blow the whistle the whole game, then fine. Just don’t stop being consistant in the last fucking minute.

  3. My boys hung in there but a few bad decisions at the end…

    Oh well…the worst was the decision tobtry and draw acharge on the go ahead basket…well that and the throw away.

    Sigh…

  4. ^I think you’re boys earned a spot in the NCAA Tournament though… and I think they’ll win a couple games when they get there.

  5. “the worst was the decision tobtry and draw acharge on the go ahead basket”

    ^Why would that be a bad decision? The refs had been blowing the whistle on plays like that the WHOLE second half. Well at least for one team.

    …and pat is right, the bad calls went both ways. Saw Leslie travel a few times and no call, bad call on Barnes when Brown knocked him down, and UNX went all Duke with the flops today.

  6. I understand wanting to try and draw a charge but not on the go ahead basket…too much risk for not enough reward..D up and see how it goes…at least thats how I see it.

  7. I think Johnson was trying to play defense on Marshall until he ended up with a shoulder in his chest. I don’t think Johnson flopped, I think he was knocked down. When you’re guarding a bigger guy and moving backwards, it doesn’t take much.

    I’ve never seen a guy flop and slide 10 feet.

  8. Hey, State, how about not turning the ball over like church league girls with 45 seconds to go?

    As a reminder State, you were playing basically against the UNC reserves for a big part of the game. If you go back and watch the last play instead of being a baby like Howell, you will see that Howell initiated all the contact.

    SFN and all you conspiracist are pathetic.

  9. I think you would be right, Todd, had not the refs already called a bazillion fouls already in the exact same situation. The refs clearly swallowed the whistle on purpose in the final minute.

    I even made note of it when Barnes was bumped pretty aggressively at the top of the key at the beginning of their final possession.

  10. “I’ve never seen a guy flop and slide 10 feet.”

    Well then lucky you, your streak is still intact. Brown didn’t slide more than a foot. If that.

    He didn’t have position, either. He wasn’t squared up to Marshall at all. He’s lucky it was a no-call and not a blocking foul.

  11. “If you go back and watch the last play instead of being a baby like Howell, you will see that Howell initiated all the contact.”

    Even if this were true, you just described Tyler Hansbrough’s entire career.

  12. pat, it wasn’t Brown, it was Johnson. Go watch the play again and see where he lands.

  13. Tacos…

    I wasnt able to see the first half so I’ll take your word for it but Im gonna take off my red glasses and say that Johnson initiated contact wih his chest and wasnt squared up…

    If blame is to be given it should be put on not hitting free throws…

  14. #1. The contact was about 5 feet inside the free throw line.
    #2. Johnson (not Brown) is sitting out of bounds when he stops moving.
    #3. Marshall lowers his shoulder.
    #4. Johnson is in good defensive position..that’s all he needs to do.

  15. Mixed Johnson and Brown up in my eagerness to jump in on this.

    I disagree with you, the refs disagreed with you, and the SCOREBOARD disagrees with you. But nothing any of us do is going to change your mind. Soooo…

  16. Todd, I actually didn’t see the first half either, that why I said “the whole second half”.

    My point isn’t if he was in good/bad position to get the call, it was that the refs HAD been at least blowing the whistle on every play like that, and all except the Barnes/Brown play (which was admitedly a bad call on Barnes), went against the offensive player.

    Both Howell and Leslie got their 4th fouls on utter flops, and Brown had one called on him at the top of the key in the middle of a possession. Why stop in the final minute?

  17. It is what it is…I think Johnson should have D’d up and I’m not going to blame the loss on a no call. Either way they played well especially with Leslie on the bench.

    Maybe they will get a chance and be able tl play in the tourney with that kind of motivation.

  18. Right, pat. Whatever.

    There’s a GIF of the play on the Pack Pride post-game thread. You’ve probably already seen it. Marshall lowers his shoulder into Johnson’s chest. Period.

    What the referees call and what actually happens are not necessarily the same thing. But, I wouldn’t expect a UNC fan to admit that.

    CJ Leslie got called for a charge on a similar play. CJ also got called for his 5th on a play that Harrison Barnes admitted in the post-game wasn’t a foul.

    The play won’t ever change. It will always be a bad call. Always. The result of the game won’t ever change, either.

    Were any of the refs today the ones that were wearing “KH” on their shoes Thursday? How would you feel if one of those guys blew a call against your team, Pat? When the referees show up with a tribute to a guy who got in trouble for something he did in your team’s gym, you might be a touch sensitive to officiating inconsistency.

  19. Tacos

    My bad on missing your second half comment…I’m posting while trying to entertain a four year old…I only got to see the last 10 mins on TV

  20. Relax Dan…what I mean by D-ing up is putting a hand up to block the shot. His defense was tight and he was moving his feet well…

    Lemme check the gif again tho

  21. If you watch the play from the baseline angle you’ll see Johnson put his chest into Marshall. i think it was a good no call. Thougj I do agree wkh that no matter what…the KH tape thing just isnt the smaartest thing for impartial refs to do…not claiming a conspiracy justthat they should have thougt that out some.

  22. Seth Davis @SethDavisHoops

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    Every time I see that Kendall Marshall bucket he charges a little harder.

  23. Todd, I was gonna ask you if you were on your phone. You tipikully have descent grammmer.

  24. Todd, Johnson is vertical and moving backwards. Marshall gives a quick lunge with his shoulder. Charge….at least according to the rules that the refs are supposed to enforce.

  25. That’s the first I’ve seen of the GIF. I know better than to lurk on that monkey board when UNX is playing NXSU. Just watching the shenanigans over there kills brain cells, you know.

    That being said, after watching the GIF, I still don’t agree with you. Johnson was not in any kind of position; he was still moving his feet and off balance. THAT is why it didn’t take much for him to fall on his ass. But I know better than to even think about thinking you will ever agree with me on that.

    How about this: score more points and don’t rely on last second call/no calls to decide the game.

  26. jebus, first the “KH” thing, then this game, now there are reports about a ref telling Gottfried to “Shut your fucking ass up”.

    christ.

  27. I guess I disagree wih Seth Davis too.

    Like I said earlier…hit free throws and we wouldn’t be discussing this.

    And thanks Tacos Ivare usually trying to be having gooder grammar than today.

  28. ^^Saw that somewhere else. Not sure I believe it. You’d think Gott or DY would have said something about that if it were true.

    I really don’t want to see FSU tomorrow. I’d much rather play dook again.

  29. On behalf of all Duke fans I’d like to thank Andre Dawkins for not doing anything at all the second half of the season and in the ACC tournament.

    If I were betting man I’d put my money on FSU winning it tomorrow with Henson out.

  30. ^And we’ve got a whole string of typical NC State fan responses (except for Todd)

  31. RAJ,

    The major difference is that this time most of the national media agrees with State fans. The ref that called the charge against CJL should have to eat his whistle with hot sauce for not calling a charge on Marshall at the end.

  32. ^They are wrong. I watched the video you posted and I see a defender whose feet were still moving when contact was made and who initiated the contact by sticking his chest out.

    And that doesn’t change the fact that 9 times out of 10 when a coach is shouting at a referee enough to make him that angry, there is a technical foul called.

    But then we REALLY would have had to hear about how State had the game won until the Refs changed the outcome, and everybody is out to get State and John Swofford ordered the Code Red and the TV networks called in the fix, etc. etc.

  33. I’m sorry, but I’ve been reading the interwebs since the game ended and your idea of “most” is definitely not the same as mine. I’ve seen some people in the media agree with you, I’ve seen some agree with me, and I’ve seen a few abstain. You, like many other NCST fans, are only seeing what you want to see.

    Yes, I’m aware that your response will be “whatever, pat. You’re the one who is only seeing what you want to see”. In anticipation of that very mature and biting response, I say, simply, scoreboard.

  34. No way that you can watch that gif and NOT see the defender sliding along with Butter on his way in. Not a charge. Period. Get over it.

    And with that: officiating didn’t cause Wood to only score 2 points; officiating didn’t cause Howell to miss point blank shots; officiating didn’t cause two unforced turnovers in the last minute; officiating didn’t cause your dumbass coaching staff to nor know how many fouls Leslie had when he picked up his 4 th; officiating didn’t cause you to not take advantage of a Henson-less front line, especially when BOTH Zeller and JimmyMacADocius had 4 fouls; officiatIng didn’t cause you to not take advantage of JWatts (JWatts!!) when he ran the point the last 4 minutes of the first half. No. Bitch and moan about one damn (correct) non call all you want. But there is no conspiracy against you guys: you simply had an opportunity and you blew it.

  35. RAJ,

    #1. Johnson was vertical and in good defensive position.
    #2. You can see Marshall’s shoulder lunge.
    #3. Marshall is the only player who has a sudden change of direction, and that change happens when he dips his shoulder into Johnson.
    #4. The defender’s feet don’t have to be set for an offensive foul to be called.
    #5. I assume you think CJ Leslie’s 4th foul was BS, because Watts was in much worse position and there was much less contact.
    #6 While I was looking for that play so I could judge, I heard Len Elmore describe the previous play as “The same thing that was called a charge when Richard Howell did it, but it was a no call on Tyler Zeller.”

  36. oneal, there’s no way to watch it and NOT see Marshall lower his shoulder.

    THE DEFENDER DOES NOT HAVE TO HAVE HIS FEET SET TO HAVE “ESTABLISHED DEFENSIVE POSITION”.

    Good grief. Do you ****** ******** really not know the *** **** rules of the game?

  37. Sure there is: he didn’t. The defender was sliding along side and flopped. Not a charge. Ever.

  38. Hey Dan,

    If Johnson doesn’t toss the ball out of bounds with 45 seconds to go, then we don’t have to worry about your pathetic and unsportsmanlike view of the world.

    State was only in the game because UVA has lost 2 of their best players and BC fields an all FR team. Grow up, all of you! State got beat and so did the A$$hole coach K. Great day!

  39. Have fun Dan. I’ve seen you have these Zapruder episodes before. I know this is going to last for days and I’m not going to waste my time telling you again what I saw only to have you tell me what I would have seen and if I wanted to see what you wanted to see.

  40. Oh my gosh, Dan has found a Dook grad that thinks UNC caught a break with the officiating??? Now I HAVE seen everything. *yawn*

  41. The REAL reason NCSU lost is that Roy out-Norm Sloaned them with that coat. Can we put the “Easy button ” bit to sleep after seeing that coat?

  42. RAJ,

    There is no way on earth to think the call on Leslie and the no-call between Marshall and Johnson are both good. No way.

    So, either talk about how the call on Leslie was garbage, or stop defending the no-call.

    BTW, according to Twitter, Leslie’s 4th and 5th fouls were both called by Brian Dorsey, who also was the ref who told Gottfried to shut the **** up, and who was also on the crew with Hess on Corch/Googs night. Barnes has already said the 5th was BS, and you should be along shortly to ‘fess up about #4.

    HP,

    Yeah..Johnson had a boneheaded turnover. But, he also made a good defensive play to make up for it, only the refs didn’t call it according to the rules.

  43. “There is no way on earth to think the call on Leslie and the no-call between Marshall and Johnson are both good. No way.”

    By the same token, they cannot both be bad. If the call on Leslie was bogus, then the no call on Marshall was, then, correct, no?

  44. There is no convincing Captain TLF. Arguing with him is like arguing with, well, me…

    Don’t fall in to that trap.

    @Todd, good one. That is the same thing I told my girlfriend while we were watching the game. She ridiculed Roy mercilessly. I put her in time out for it.

  45. Fuck every grape smuggling, boat-shoe wearing ball guzzling baby-blue loving cocksucking fuckstick asshole that roots for that elitist, 1% -supporting bunch of blue-blood old-money humping conceited used-douche guzzling mother-effing Tar Heels.

    Yeah, just kidding, I didn’t see a second of the game because I’m in Tahoe with better things to do.

    You can’t blame the refs, they don’t stop balls from going in the hoop nor do they prevent bad passes. The better team won. Which is always the case.

  46. Okay, my rant was a bit much. But I was seriously trying to emulate the anger of many a Pack fan today. Point is, it was a good game, from what I read, and should just be celebrated as such. Pack made it to Saturday, which is what I expected.

    Go UCONN.

  47. That coat Roy wore today was not just a fashion faux pas, it was a goldarn hate crime. Absolutely dreadful. The Salvation Army Thrift Store in Fuquay phoned — they want it Roy to send it back. John Daly’s pants thought that coat was loud and ugly. Lou Henson’s combover tweeted “WTF Roy?”. No more Sidney Lowe “Easy Button” Jokes. Ever.

    I only watched the second half of the game. I thought the refereeing was terrible and wildly inconsistent — call it the same way all the way through… but that’s not why NCSU lost. The story of this season for State has been “the moment was biger than you were”(players and coach). I think that changes moving forward. Gott has an ACC season under his belt and the players will learn his system better and mature – and they have some real talent coming in next year.

    Duke missed Kelly, as Carolina missed Henson. Carolina overcame it, Duke did not. The amazing disappearing Dawkins did it again. They will be out in the Sweet Sixteen unless they catch an athletic matchup in the second round and go out earlier. K’s assignments are heal Kelly and find Dawkins… Carolina needs Henson to make a deep run. Without him they don’t generate a lot of fear inside defensively and are vulnerable. Decent chance 45/55 they get beat tomorrow — especially if Roy wears a similar coat.

  48. Oh oh oh, Captain TLF has rock hard proof evidence type stuff. We’re all wrong and he’s right as rain. Dan, we’re putting together a “Sorry we were wrong, congrats on being right” card for you. You should be getting it soon. Hold your breath.

  49. @DU, what happened to Quinn Cook? Wasn’t he supposed to be a pretty good player?

    I think Irving last year and Rivers this year have taken all of Dawkins’ confidence. I think he expected to be a BMOC when he came in as a Frosh and those two stealing his ‘shine’ has hurt him mentally. I, of course, have no proof of this.

  50. Pat,

    I think the fact that Rivers dominates the ball the way he does has limited the ability of K to give Cook floor time to develop in a traditional point guard mold.

    And while you have no proof I totally agree about Dawkins being affected (a lot) by the presence of Rivers (Irving not so much as he only played 11 games). At the beginning of the year both Dawkins and Curry looked really really lost on the floor when Rivers had the ball. Rivers has gotten somewhat better at both spacing and distribution and Curry made the necessary adjustments but Dawkins seems not to have. But it’s weird because he will throw a 6 for 8 from 3 23 point game in there now and again. That’s the Dawkins me and Jmohn were hoping for these last two games. No go.

  51. 2 calls, 2 no calls. All of them against your team…in a game you lose by two points.

    Fouls called against your team twice, no calls against your opponent twice on similar (at least) or worse plays.

    Those calls/no calls made by a guy who said something worse to your coach than was ever said to Karl Hess by Corchiani and Gugliotta, who also just happened to be a part of Hess’ crew that night, and who also is most likely one of the guys who was wearing a tribute to Hess on Thursday.

    Len freaking Elmore, of all people, said that the Howell foul and Zeller no-call were the same play. Elmore is certainly no defender of NCSU, so for him to say that is a big deal.

    Anybody with eyes can see that there was way more contact on the last play than there was on the Leslie play, but Leslie was called for a charge and Marshall wasn’t.

    It’s easy to say that if it wasn’t for this or that thing that NCSU did they would still had a chance to win. The simple fact is that the referees did and do affect the game. Two BS fouls on Leslie in about 30 seconds took State’s best player out of the game for the last 8 1/2 minutes. Do you think that didn’t affect the game? A BS call on Scott Wood put Barnes at the line to tie it at 67 on a play where Barnes went out of control and was bailed out by the refs. And then Marshall dips his shoulder into a State player, there’s no call, and he shoots a wide open 8 footer. At the very least, I should be complaining about a bad blocking call. No call was the worst choice of the three possible options.

    If two guys are moving together, one with the ball and the other defending, the offensive player can’t lunge with his shoulder before stepping back anymore than he can shove the defender out of the way with his off hand. I don’t know why all of a sudden you guys are pretending that the defensive player has to be some statue that was standing there for a day and a half.

  52. Has anyone heard of an official actually saying anything close to “shut your fucking ass up” to a coach? That is just beyond insane.

    Swofford and the ACC will probably issue a statement reprimanding Dorsey because he failed to follow protocol by not giving Gottfried the finger while saying it.

  53. Every story I have come across about the game this morning has at least brought up the inconsistency of the calls by the refs. Everyone with eyes (including UNXfan) know they were horrible.

    Visiting various sports blogs and team sites, it’s hilarious to me that UNXfan continues to defend the refs during the last minute. They’ll admit the Stripes were terrible until they see a no-call that gives them the edge at the end of the game.

    Like I said before, charge or no charge they should have to be consistant the ENTIRE game.

    Saying that, I will admit that State cannot expect ACC refs to actually be competent, so turning the ball over TWICE in the last minute is what doomed us. You can’t do that and presume you’ll win any game that goes down to the wire.

    I’ll shut up about that now.

    Looks like every analyst I have seen still have the Pack dancing. I won’t believe it until I see them start playing an actual NCAAT game though. Chances are, ncstateshit will make its presence known somehow. You’d be stupid not to bet on that.

  54. Dan you can post all the clips you want, it doesn’t prove anything. Heck, somebody post the Raycom feed. That’s what I watched, and Mike Gminski said that both calls were correct! Fran Frascilla and Digger Phelps each had different takes on it as well. Even better, go to TarHeelBlog (link on this page) and look at the still pictures of both plays. It doesn’t prove anything either, but Leslies sure looks more like a charge.

    Bitch all you want, but you had two turnovers in the last minute that killed you. Killed you. There is no conspiracy, just pathetic bitching and moaning. Please, please, go to the SEC. The act of StateFan “woe is me” has gotten well past it’s “sell by date”

    We won. You lost. Not out rival. Etc, etc, etc

  55. Oneal, you are right, the turnovers doomed the Pack.

    The clips do demonstrate inconsistency, however. In the pace of the game, they are the exact same play. We have advantages when watching them in video, something the refs don’t have the luxury to see. So yes, the no-call was a bad one.

    It didn’t decide the game though. I stand by not complaining about refs as reasons for wins/losses but that doesn’t mean that there never bad calls. In my opinion, bad calls are part of every sport, a team has to play its game and let the refs call theirs.

  56. Are you seriously still trying to prove something, Captain TLF?

    Scoreboard. Post a link to that.

  57. Hmm … Heel fans seem a bit more riled up about this win than other recent victories over the Pack.

    Intriguing.

  58. Not about the win, Carl. About some Wolp!Fack!ers insistence that the win is tainted. It is a lose-lose for UNXers when TLF is involved.

  59. ^^No. Heels fans are sick of State Fans never ending blame game, and based on the article oneal posted we are not alone.

  60. The charging call on Lesile was BS, BUT the no calls at the end of the game were correct.

    Yes losing Leslie with 8 to play sux, but State was still down 5pt when he exited. And its not like JMM and Z didn’t play with 4 fouls too in the 2nd half.

  61. It’s a lot easier to play with fouls when the refs aren’t calling a lot of what you do.

    oneal….everything you say is true. Wood could have played better. Johnson could have made better decisions. All of it is true.

    But, it’s also true that at the end of the game, Johnson made a play that should have been called. Less contact had been called a foul against NCSU several times during that game.

    With all of the mistakes NCSU had made, they should have had the ball and a chance to win with the score tied. You say that teams should play through bad calls….State did that. Every call/no call that was bad up to that point State had battled back from and had the game tied at 67.

    When the refs only give you about 10 seconds to come back from a bad call, it’s much tougher.

    Howell backs into Zeller, Zeller falls, charge on Howell.
    Zeller backs into Painter, Painter falls, no call – Zeller scores.

    Leslie is almost past Watts, Watts falls, charge on Leslie (taking away two points).

    Marshall bumps Johnson (who was in better defensive position than Watts ever hoped to have), Johnson falls, no call – easy 8 foot shot for Marshall.

    The bad calls did not balance themselves out the way that UNC fan likes to pretend that they do.

    The fact that one of the guys on the crew happened to have all the Hess connections makes it look worse.

    Good luck to both teams today.

  62. “The fact that one of the guys on the crew happened to have all the Hess connections makes it look worse”

    Dan, all the “Hess connections” dont make it look bad to anyone except for State fans. You have some legit complaints about the refs until you fall into conspiracy mode.

    Would you have been happier if a blocking foul was called on Johnson? Probably not. In the refs eyes it was a non-call.

  63. I didn’t visit TSB today until just now and when I saw this thread had 76 comments I knew it’d be about officiating. How predictable.

  64. Nate,

    I actually would be less upset if it was a block. I think the block/charge debate is much closer than the call/no call debate. There was too much contact for there to be no call at all.

    As for the Hess thing….I don’t consider it a conspiracy, because I don’t think any smoke signals came from Greensboro. But, I do think that Dorsey could hold a grudge against a school that caused problems for one of his friends. I do think that showing a sign of support for someone who isn’t there could be considered wrong when you’re judging a team that is the reason said official isn’t there.

  65. If you’re trying to play connect the dots “Dorsey could hold a grudge..”, then that is conspiracy mode, IMO. If Hess made that call, you might have a point. So all refs who know Hess cant call games when NCSU is playing because the “might hold a grudge” ? that is ridiculous

    At least be happy you have a legit coach now who has State heading the right direction. They wouldn’t be in this position with Sid.

  66. Fair enough…we can have a difference of opinion about it.

    I don’t think I’m connecting a lot of dots when Dorsey was on Hess’ crew during Corch/Googs night, wearing the sticker on Thursday, and then at the center of several controversial plays that all went against NCSU. Not to mention the cursing at Gottfried.

    As for as the season goes, I’m quite happy. It’s not like NCSU automatically wins even if the Marshall call yesterday goes the way I think it should have.

    In a couple of hours, I get to watch an NCAA selection show and actually have a hope that NCSU will be listed. That hasn’t happened in a long, long time. I was sad to see St. Bonaventure beat Xavier, though…makes me a lot more nervous.

    If Gottfried can keep CJ Leslie around (fingers crossed), next season’s State team should be one of the best they’ve had in quite some time.

  67. I totally 100% agree the cursing at Gott was waaay out of line.
    Maybe he thought he was K or something

  68. “next season’s State team should be one of the best they’ve had in quite some time.”

    way to damn them with faint praise…

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